Unless you have established a very close relationship as a person's coach and have trained and coached them extensively on technique, it is entirely inappropriate to shout cues at someone (me, for example) during a set. Especially during sets requiring complete focus (rep maxes, for example).
I have to wonder if people who purportedly deadlift are aware of the amount of concentration a properly executed lift (especially at high repetitions) takes. Or maybe I'm the only one in the world who has to use most of his mind and body to deadlift...I don't know.
Anyway, I understand well meaning "powerlifting vets." But please do not cue me to alter my form in any way during a high intensity set. I may be wrong in this opinion, but I think it's more dangerous to stray from whatever technique you used for warmup and initial sets than it is to lift with slight form imperfections.
Ideally, your warmups and max effort sets will all be flawlessy executed. And perhaps the technique criticisms are valid and worth bringing up. However, if there are small problems with your form, I think it's probably safer to address them over time in light sets rather than in an instant try to adjust the way you are pulling at your max.
I was being told to "drop my hips lower" every time I set up for the lift. Now, this was after I stood up fully between lowering the weight and starting the next pull. In resetting for the lift, I push my hips back with my legs fairly straight while grasping the bar. At this point my hips are high. I then drop my hips low and try to sit back as much as I can. I then tense my body by pretending I'm starting the lift without actually lifting the bar. My hips come up a bit to take the slack out, and my shoulders are probably right over the bar. I think the good Samaritan must have seen me setting up initially with high hips and become convinced that I was pulling with hips up. Because then he changed his commentary to "That's it, good hips" later in the set when I changed nothing in my setup.
That all said, I don't think there was a lot of validity in the criticism I got on the platform for reasons that I'll try to elaborate upon.
Granted, I could sit back into a deeper squat at the start of my lift, but that puts my shoulders behind the bar, puts me into what I feel is an inefficient starting position, and, frankly, puts a lot of stress on my already bruised shins to start the lift. So I would take a bit of criticism to sit back more at the start and make sure the weight is on my heels. I know that I tend to come onto mid foot to start the set (sometimes toes if I get slack).
But I firmly believe that my hips are neither improperly high nor inefficiently low for a conventional pull.
Couple these things with the fact that the critique was coming from a lifter who a) used the Glute Ham Bench for hyperextensions b) completely lost tension on his box squats and used the rocking technique c) pulled sumo style with hips higher than mine were in my conventional lift and d) upon finishing my set he told me that I should start my pull then drop my hips. That sounds more like clean and jerk advice to me, but my experience is limited. I thought pulling in a DL was supposed to be a concerted effort of knee and hip extension and that hips should rise at about the same rate that your hips come forward.
JB, Chris, you might be able to offer some wisdom on hip height for a conventional deadlift: My femurs are probably realistically at about a 2/3 squat position (2/3 of the way between knees locked and a parallel squat), maybe a touch higher. In this position, my hips are back and as up as they need to so that I can keep a neutral spine.
I feel like dropping any deeper makes for a bad starting position for a conventional deadlift wherein the weight is out in front of me and I have to try to start by squatting the bar up unduly while the weight is out in front of me. That doesn't make a lot of sense. I think it makes
If I can get someone to join me at the gym one of these days I'm going to record a video and post here so that I can get feedback from people that I trust.
One sentence summary of this rant: I probably have some technique shortcomings in my deadlift, the largest one probably being my tendency to put my weight up toward my toes at the start of the lift; however, it is inappropriate and unsafe to critique me during a set unless you are my coach who has been cueing me in training. At the very least it creates a distraction such that by the end the lifter is only pretty sure they counted their reps correctly. At the very worst, it causes the lifter to actually follow these cues and modify their technique to your cues when they are lifting in a very high effort situation despite not having warmed up/previously trained using these different body positions. Maybe I'm overreacting. The guy was well meaning and friendly. And lord knows I love to talk about the minutia of exercise techniques with anyone who will listen. Just not in the midst of a hard effort, please.
Numbers for the day: DL 12 reps at 265. Very pleased with this. Predicted max consistently at ~360 over the month. Not that I necessarily believe the number is a good estimate of a true max, but I like that I'm coming into heavier weights and lower rep ranges and still hitting that prediction. And it's considerable progress over the past 3 months.
I should note on my DL numbers that reps are probably better described as repeats and my set is more like 12 singles at 265. But I prefer to set up carefully before each rep. This is probably a bit different than pounding out 12 reps very fluidly. But reps just don't feel right with a barbell to me and I prefer to nail my setup as close as I can on every pull.
Military Press yesterday: 12 @ 95
Still moving forward there.
Tuesday, November 17, 2009
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFs9em8h8ZE
I use a bit wider stance than Jim, but not by much.
I'll be out your way the weekend of the 5th/6th we'll take a look at that in person.
I think that guy is a crossfit type who has been taught that olympic lifts and deadlifts start the same way.. in other words he is probably a tool.. but only one way to know for sure.
Thanks JB--
Kick ass about the visit. We'll get things ready for you. Any chance I could convince you to cook up a Saturday workout for the group?
For the record, my hips are probably a tick lower than Jim Wendler's. The weight is not so comparable.
No worries man.
Good technique isn't dependent upon weight, it's just good technique.
I certainly can, but since I have no idea the capabilities, goals, and training progression of your self/trainees it wouldn't be ideal, though I will want to get 1-2 workouts in while I'm out there (either in the gym or in the park)
I certainly don't mean to just interject myself into your training. Let me know if you've got other plans.
Not at all, man. I'm looking forward to having a chance to train with you. If it works out on your end, we can train at my gym (http://www.fordsgym.com/) or at the park. The park will probably depend on the weather. Ever since mid october, it's been hit or miss on how cold it is. Once December arrives it becomes a crap shoot as to whether there will be ice on the ground. In which case, game time decision about the park workout.
As for the park group, you'd be more than welcome to join and participate or offer some ideas. I'll follow up with an email to give you some detail about the weekly schedule.
Again, I'm happy to accomodate whatever you have in mind. If you are looking to get in two 5/3/1 workouts instead of sandbagging it, we can make it happen.
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